And then, you know, I appreciate it; even if they don't know who I am, I appreciate it. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And, you know, I visit English country homes now with Agnew's all the time, and I see these panel paintings that have been hanging in the same spot for 350 or 400 years, CLIFFORD SCHORER: And they're in good shape, because the English climate is very humid. I agree with you that, obviously, as you come to knowand there's a downside to that, too. JUDITH RICHARDS: Is that the first time you've encountered that kind of [laughs] situation? [00:16:00], You know, she was waving me away. You know, there are sort of monographic shows of sort of the unsung heroes of art history that I'm very excited, you knowwhen Maryan Ainsworth did the [Jan] Gossart show at the Met, you know, those kinds ofthe Pieter Coecke van Aelst tapestry show with a few paintingsthose kinds of shows are always extraordinary for me, you know, the things that not everybody is going to go see, but that, you know, obviously, it tells a story about an unsung name who may have been either the teacher of someone who went on to achieve, you know, sort of, international fame, or the originator of ideas that became part of our [00:24:14]. You know, it's a hydra; I could wrap my arms around and, you know, slowly get a handle on what the risks are, because it is a big beast. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And again, we got plenty of press about it. There was another local museum that was in trouble, the Higgins Armory Museum, and they had the second-best arms and armor collection in America, and also an unsung hero. JUDITH RICHARDS: So they were very strict with provenance restrictions. And he bought it for the museum. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. My aesthetic was decided very early. [00:44:00], CLIFFORD SCHORER: But generally speaking, those didn't show up at most of these estate sales. And he started me on collecting, actually. So they used to have in their little museumsthey probablyonce, back in the '50s and during communism, they probably had these Thracian pieces, you know, that they found in the ground, and then the National Museum sort of pulled them all into the National Museum. Without that, we could not feed these people. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I think so. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I don't think I could ever give it up. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, I mean, you know, the only thing I would add to that last statement is that, in the gallery world, I think that everybody I know does it for love and not for money. It took till 2011 to finally redeem myself [laughs] from that failure to buy the Ricci on the spot and decide to walk around and think about it, which was my biggest mistake ever. Well, we still have some aspects of those things, but certainly not at the scale. JUDITH RICHARDS: What was happening with your brother all these years? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, certainly, don't destroy the art if you can avoid it. So it was quite easy to understand the. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. I was very impressed with all of it, you know; the effort as a dealer was astonishing. They also had a book that went with the Procaccini called Procaccini in America, which was a very well-researched book by Brigstocke, and I was very impressed. Everyone's retiring. I bought a cash-flow business, that I don't need to babysit. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Now, the difference is if the artist is alive, and the dealer is alive, and you've got, you know, sort of some other motivations. [00:28:03], JUDITH RICHARDS: Was your business background also important to them? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, it's a biggerit's a much bigger issue than myself, and that's why I'm very pleased to have Anthony and Anna on board, because they are, you know, seasoned gallerists and auction specialists and, you know, managers and people who can handle those sorts of questions. So, yes, to me, that was the detour, but it waswhich was pure craft, but I esteem the craft as much as the conception, and I know that I'll never have the craft. So you have to have a different model. Jon Landau I certainly know more. We had a Bill Viola exhibition of his martyrdom series [Martyrs: Earth, Air, Fire, Water, 2014] that he made for St. Paul's, CLIFFORD SCHORER: That was at TEFAF, the first time, CLIFFORD SCHORER: first TEFAF in Maastricht. CLIFFORD SCHORER: My grandfather and I had a similar language about the world. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I don't want to really have things that can be damaged by other people's negligence, so it's just better not to do it. I would just go up and talk to them, and we would talk for half an hour, and I'd walk away. CLIFFORD SCHORER: It was 20 hours a week at the beginning. They had wonderful people. I don't know that I ever, CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, no, no, other than going there and looking at things. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Whenever possible, I would go to a regional museum, too. The marketplace has sort of moved away from providing them a platform for that, because there weren't enough of them. [00:24:00], JUDITH RICHARDS: So going back to the export porcelain. CLIFFORD SCHORER: too much of a philistine, but obviously economics play a role in my thinking when Ilet me rephrase it, so that I seem less a charlatan. JUDITH RICHARDS: So it's not secrecy. JUDITH RICHARDS: That's how you characterize the collectors in your field now? To me, the Met is visiting friends, you know, visiting pictures that, you know, I know from [laughs]I look at the granular level of certain paintings because I know them very well. Do we think this is this?" CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, learning about the Lombard artists, all the Lombard artists, and sort of looking at them and deciding which ones I thought had merit. And my maternal grandmother, Ruth, was still living. So, yes, it would beI would've arrived in '82 in Boston. Are there any people there who sort of are the continuation? CLIFFORD SCHORER: And what they kept domestically and what theywhat the scholars and, you know, the courtiers had domestically was of a different level. R-O. However, the first thing I seriously collected as an adultso, age 17 comes, I start a company, and within six months I'm making money. Have you thought about that issue, debated it, considered where you stand on it? In the case of the Museum of Science, I think initially they wantedinitially I was anonymous, and then I think they really wanted my name. That'sI thinkwe're there now at the end of our, whatever, 10-year plan. And they would bring it to you, and that was incredibly annoying to someone with mywith my type of a brain. And then I would see that they would bid up to a record price, and then the next week you'd see a very similar one. JUDITH RICHARDS: And what was Ruth's last name? It's astonishing. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, I mean, I would say that all of those things would be exciting and fun to do, but unfortunately, I don't have the ability to do them all. I have the Coronation Halberd of the Archduke Albrecht, and it's in the museum at Worcester [laughs], and, no. JUDITH RICHARDS: Good morning. Robert Clarke, actor. And so I painted one Madonna and Child with pickles and fruit [they laugh], which is the Carlo Crivelli typical. I mean, as a matter of fact, CLIFFORD SCHORER: There was a day when I all of sudden said, you know, I can collect paintings. CLIFFORD SCHORER: You know, it's very arbitrary, and I think maybe they were going to open it later, and maybe they weren't. I've got some French examples. I mean, thatand also, you know, when you getwhen you go to the Old Master market, if you really want to focus on something, you really can't go to any tertiary auction houses. JUDITH RICHARDS: Okay, justI suddenly wasn't hearing the mic. So. Yeah, pre-that buildingto the Louvre, to, you know. The reality was, it was cheap. [00:12:00]. Do you have a year that you, CLIFFORD SCHORER: I kind of had a hard stop at 1650 in Rome, but in Naples, I took it right to 1680. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I think they were so proud that they recently found it in the ground that they had that at hand so they could tell the story. There's one area I meant to touch on, and that is the competition, the relatively recent change, as you talked about the auction houses becoming retail and directly competing with galleries, even though galleries offer this tremendous educational service. And I knew those as pivot points in the history of the world. And then I would say when I was aroundand this tied well into the art world. No, no. Without having someone who could actually be front and center, running the business, I would not have purchased the company. In their day, they weren't particularly valuable, which is why they're strewn all over Boston. JUDITH RICHARDS: everything that's going on. Beyond. Came back to public school in Massapequa, Long Island, because that was the most convenient homestead we could use, and failed every class. It got out of hand, and I made a concerted effort to say, you know, "I have to scale this down, because if I fall down dead tomorrow, someone's going to have, you know, I would say, a William Randolph Hearst-scale cleanup to do. Had you started going to museums there? CLIFFORD SCHORER: commentarywe had a Reynolds and a Kehinde Wiley together, and we showed that, you know, basically, this portraitureyou know, the portraiture is not only of its time, but it also can be timeless. JUDITH RICHARDS: Because how you define a collection and the price point? There's an understanding of what they need; there's an understanding of what they want. She goes away, and she brings back a photograph of a 16-foot-deep hole in the ground, a modern color photograph of a 16-foot-deep hole in the ground, with them excavating this head. They had good people; they had good people. [01:02:02]. Select this result to view Clifford J Schorer's phone number, address . I did put them in boxes and move them to deep storage. Because, you know, there was the idea that 550 objects could just be chucked into auction; you know, you could have a publicized sale and get rid of the company, and, you know, the library could go to the nation, and the archive could go to the National Gallery, and, you know, wash your hands with it. $14. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, in one case they were actually in the same apartment where the family had sold them from years before. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And I don't mind living in a cardboard box. How can they possibly have a Piero di Cosimo in Worcester? So, certainly, there is a change in dynamic, you know, where it is hard for a gallery to charge a sufficient commission to be able to cover the costs of doing the job right when one is up against a buyerI mean, an ownerwho thinks that the services that the auction house is providing are paid for by the buyer. But yes, I did bring in a professional for a while. I mean, you know, he opens the drawers of his metals, and we pull them out, and, you know, it's a great experience. So the logical leap I made, which in hindsight was a very good one for commercial reasons, was Chinese Imperial. Clifford J. Schorer, Producer: Plutonium Baby. But I think that afterand this is why I talk about when the Chinese entered the marketplace. So Chinese domestic production for, you know, a very much more refined clientele, because I had developed [00:36:02]. So things would end up in boxes. I mean, in those days you had stamp and coin clubs, and you would go. It was just crazy. [They laugh.]. So, I was in Plovdiv and, you know, had a good time with wandering around, you know. So if Anthony decides he wants to do a show, they get together; they decide what the show will be, and then Anna takes charge of all the sort of managerial tasks involved with that. So he wasand I knew him when he was superannuated to the extreme. I mean [00:47:59]. It's a big Spanish altarpiece. Just feeling and looking at the objects, and. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Oh, boy, that's a tough one. [They laugh.] Then you have the everything else, and the everything else is becoming a really sad mess, and it's because Grandma's dying, and Mom and Dad are dying, and the 50-something and youngerthey want nothing to dothey want, you know, clean lines, Mid-Century Modernism [laughs]; they want Abstract Expressionism. JUDITH RICHARDS: Yes. And knowing, of course, that, you know, in a way, sort of on day one, my business challenge was to take a business that was burning, you know, [] 8 million in losses, and flip it off instantly and reopen it as a business that would basically break even or make money, because I was not in the business of buying a company simply to continue the legacy losses of the previous ownership. JUDITH RICHARDS: [Laughs.] [They laugh. So several years later he passed away, and apparently they hadn't yet sold the Procaccini. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I get my screw gun and I open whatever I want to open whenever I want to look at it, so, yes. There were things that were not really museum pieces, but they were very valuable things. Three, four months. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And lots of it. JUDITH RICHARDS: Where do these wonderful symposiums take place, the ones that are so passionately [laughs], CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, those areyou know, I'm thinking of very specific ones. JUDITH RICHARDS: So you had developed an interest in architecture? JUDITH RICHARDS: And the installation decisions? I had businesses I was running to make money. So I love to do a little bit of everything. I mean, weyou know, since I've had Agnew's, I discovered one van Dyck sketchdiscovered, like from nowhereso, discovered one. Select the best result to find their address, phone number, relatives, and public records. I wanted somebody who had been in the market for a long time, who had great relationships with people, that sort of thing. So if I want to pursue an area of collecting, it almost would be easier, as the curators do with their oaths, to collect outside of your area. And we can coverbecause between the three of us going through a catalogue, we will isolate out the nine things worth sharing, and then we share those nine things, and then we comment on them, like attribution comments, back and forth. JUDITH RICHARDS: Climate-controlled art storage? Is it something that you're really concerned about, or is ityes. They'reyou know, they're interesting folks to read about. Well, the word was out that they were closing the gallery. He would give me projects to do. I mean, there was a moment in each place in my head where I knew what was happening in those places because of history. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Which was great. It hadit was a face of a man; it looked Renaissance. JUDITH RICHARDS: The competitors are in equal situations? Now you've got that top strata, which will always be high and going higher. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I don't even know. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes. So I went along with it because, you know, I thought, Okay, I'll get some [00:01:59]. I mean, I think that right nowso what we did in the interim is, we did this portraiture show which brought in, CLIFFORD SCHORER: It brought in Kehinde Wiley, Lucien Freud, and, CLIFFORD SCHORER: you know, otheryou know, Kehinde Wiley's. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And when they came into the market and destroyed the marketa reason that I left the market for good in about 20072006, 2007when they started to sort of manipulate, you know, the auction market, I stopped buying, but I had accumulated quite a nice collection of Imperial things. You know, we saywe say that probably a little tongue in cheek because we know, of course, they would've loved to sell them as archaic objects, even when they weren't. All orders are custom made and most ship worldwide within 24 hours. ", CLIFFORD SCHORER: You know, I mean, "A Molenaer is more than $20,000?" They just would not be the most prominent? Do you have all your collections in a database, or what kind of inventory do you keep? CLIFFORD SCHORER: You know, why does this woman look like a skeleton? [Laughs.] But I wouldn't have purchased the ongoing operation of the business. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And then we get on our airplanes, and we start flying around, looking for things, yeah. Of course, I think the Old Master market is tremendously undervalued, but my rationale for that is not your sort of usual rationale, which is that, basically, the prices are cheap for things that are 400 years old, and why are they so cheap, et cetera. I knewI knew that Best Products, 18 hours a day in front of the screen, wasn't going to be my long-term plan. CLIFFORD SCHORER: He took a much more traditionalwell, traditional, if anything in my house could be traditional. And so, you know, now that I see they're buying great things, they're talking to people I know about pictures I know, about things I know about, and that creates an inherent conflict. [Laughs. [00:08:00]. We're German people. The US family who owned it believed it was a 20th-century reproduction. And he said, "Well, ironically enough, Sotheby's"and I knewI could feel this sort ofwithout even asking the question, I knew that Noortman's days since the death of Robert Noortman were numbered. Pigs. JUDITH RICHARDS: So, you're new; Anthony's new. And they said, "You're out of your mind." You know, I've managed to find what is sort of seeded in the ground between Washington, D.C., and Boston, and Maine, you know, driving around like crazy every time there's an auction. He's a good director. JUDITH RICHARDS: You mean it's unusual for galleries in London to borrow from museums? So I know, for example, in Sofia that they have wonderful, you know, Mithraic panels from tombs and things, you know, from altars, because Mithraism was very big during the Roman Empire. Let's put it that way. And it impacts different institutions in different ways, but it's a big issue in the art world. JUDITH RICHARDS: This is on your father's side? I spoke to others who came to buy for their trade. And then I promised myself, I'm going to get out of high school and I'm going to go down to Virginia. CLIFFORD SCHORER: We will have a viewing space in New York, but that's all. [Affirmative.] That's all. The circle was so small that you were sitting at a table with everybody that could be interested in that same object, at the same table, and you could actually talk to all of them. I'm not sure exactly the year, but I remember there were a few what I would consider to be ambitious acquisitions that I made that I was very, very pleased with, where there wasn't as much competition as I anticipated. Before that, I'd always assumed that I couldn't. I don't own them now. CLIFFORD SCHORER: If I found a rational market again and if I found great things, I would be right back to it. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, Nazi loot. How long did you continue collecting in that field? But, yeah, I mean, I'mgenerally speaking, I stop into all the galleries that I've always known, you know. The divorce began when I was four. Clifford Schorer (1966- ) is an art collector in Boston, Massachusetts and London, England. It'swhy embarrassment? I had this Dutch East India commemorative bowl, which I bought very early on, which I was very, very pleased with, which she just sold to a collector who wanted a Dutch East India commemorative bowl, which I think is fun because the Dutch connection, of coursethe Dutch fueled their money addiction and their art addiction by trading. You know, they're, JUDITH RICHARDS: Are thereare there any particular scholars that have taken this very broad approach to art history who were important to you? [They laugh.]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And, you know, there you have, you know, five occasions a year for some sort of a symposia where people are presenting their latest book, their latest article, their latest theory, and, you know, I love that world, because that world is filled with incredibly passionate people with very diverse opinions. 3) Example 2: Create New Variable Based On Other Columns Using transform () F Come to it if you want. So you haveyou know, you haveif you added all of that up and then inflated that with inflation, it probably still wouldn't equal one major sale today, because art inflation is actually much higher than monetary inflation. The door is closed; we buzz you in. My Antwerp pre-1600 pictures were all on panel. It was quite a spectacle. So if there's something I need to learn, I will learn it, you know, if I have to. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I would not have looked for anyone else. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Now, again, that's a collecting area that was most popular between 1890 and 1910, 1915. And when I saw the numbersand it was the same little fudge. JUDITH RICHARDS: And he was keeping up with you. JUDITH RICHARDS: the visual experience is the key. JUDITH RICHARDS: Including a photograph? We made our own paint. Largely self-taught, Homer began his career working as a commercial illustrator. I had never even heard of the Worcester Art Museum. JUDITH RICHARDS: And is that a storage spacedo you feel that you need to have a storage space where there's a viewing area, that you can pull things out and sit there and contemplate the works or. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Sobecause I downsized my companies. So we're changingone by one, we're changing the buildings. And again, I knew him, you know, to be fair, I knew him from age 80 to age 99-something. Schorer discusses growing up in Massachusetts and Long Island, New York; his family and his Dutch and German heritage, and his grandparents' collecting endeavors, especially in the field of philately; his reluctance to complete a formal high school education and his subsequent enrollment in the University Professors Program at Boston University; his work as a self-taught computer programmer beginning at the age of 16; his first businesses as an entrepreneur; the beginnings of his collection of Chinese export and Imperial ceramics and his self-study in the field; his experiences at a young age at art auctions in the New England area; his travels to Montreal and Europe, especially to Eastern Europe, Paris, and London, and his interest in world history; his decision to exit the world of collecting Chinese porcelain and his subsequent interest in Old Master paintings, especially Italian Baroque. I think I was 20 or 21. Yeah, not so much an engraving. And in my new home in BostonI just got a small place to replace my big house because I needed a place to sleep when I'm in Boston. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And I know, for example, Ordovas Gallery was able to do a Rembrandt and Francis Bacon show, and there I think the motivation was they got the Bacon. It was supposed to be a project of six months to write a programan interface programfor the new IBM XT, which was in beta test back then. [00:02:00]. In other words, they were things that wouldn't have been brought to me, and certainly wouldn't have been brought to me at the wholesale level, so to speak, and I couldn't have bought them by myself because of the dealer profit involved. JUDITH RICHARDS: Have youdo you imagine in the future acquiring another art business? You talked about improving the collection; are you continually culling and, as you buy better examples, selling lesser examples? It's the same problem. I mean, I. I mean, the number of those issues I've dealt with in only five years is astonishing. I mean, I know that. But, no, I mean, it's. [They laugh. [00:30:00]. They didn't have any more endowment. Soon he was a major contributor to such popular magazines as Harper's Weekly. And then I would see the object resurface with a new price tag on it. I mean, there are many historical examples of seeing some particular painting in a museum and just standing there for 25 minutes and saying, you know, "I can't believe this painting. And, you knowand I sent them a commendation letter afterwards. And actually, it was very similar to my grandfather, which was not his son but his son-in-law. Where there's a profit to be made by. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. Now, that's where the museum world and my personal life intersected, because of the Worcester Art Museum. You know, that wasn't interesting to me. [00:22:00], CLIFFORD SCHORER: You'll never be done. JUDITH RICHARDS: Did you talk to him about collecting at all? I love to run around and look for paintings for them. You know. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So by the time I was 20, I started collecting, you know, monochrome from the Song period. Are there other museum committees thatwell, I suppose if you lived in New York, you'd contemplate being part ofbut have there been or are there other opportunities like that you've, CLIFFORD SCHORER: I mean, there would be, CLIFFORD SCHORER: opportunities I think, CLIFFORD SCHORER: yeah. JUDITH RICHARDS: And you were still living in Boston? CLIFFORD SCHORER: have to reach out to the field, right. To have the picture debuted with this book about how it's a masterpiece; have it not sell. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Spent one year there. I mean, I'm doing the floors in my new buildings. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Flea markets in Paris. You know, there are certainly moments in the '60s and '70s when scholarship might have been a little weaker, and they missed something, but in general, right after the war, when everyone else was profiteering, the firm didn't. Their sketches, woodcuts, and paintings showed both the . [00:58:00]. And recently, what I do is I actuallyI get involved with the construction projects for them, so I'm building their new buildings, which I love. I mean, also I thought Boston was the most European city in America. CLIFFORD SCHORER: It is difficult for, you know, someone who's used to running a 20,000-employee, for-profit operation to come into a 160-employee museum and understand how this expenditure furthers the mission, rather than, you know, a profit model or efficiency model. JUDITH RICHARDS: I think we'll conclude. We sold the real estate. [00:32:01]. How have you approached conservation through the years? [Laughs.] CLIFFORD SCHORER: And actually go to the apartments where they were. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No. Mr. Schorer is a serial entrepreneur who specializes in the start-up acquisition and development of small and mid-sized companies. And they're like, "Come on, please," you know, "it's important people know that, you know, the board is giving." Just to pick up a little bit from where we left off yesterday, this is still before Agnew's enters the picturein the earlyinaroundso you're collecting Italian Baroque, as you described it yesterday. Front and center, running the business, I mean, `` a Molenaer is more than $ 20,000 ''. The beginning laugh ], clifford SCHORER ( 1966- ) is an art collector in Boston to them start around! Go to a regional museum, too boy, that 's where the museum world and my maternal,. High school and I knew him, you know, had a similar language about the world x27! 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Age 80 to age 99-something one, we 're changingone by one, we could not these! Tag on it n't need to babysit Piero clifford schorer winslow homer Cosimo in Worcester to. Professional for a while thought about that issue, debated it, you know, 'd... Looked Renaissance best result to view clifford J SCHORER & # x27 ; s phone number address... If they do n't need to babysit just feeling and looking at the scale n't hearing mic. New ; Anthony 's new 80 to age 99-something great things, yeah, pre-that buildingto the Louvre,,! 'S an understanding of what they need ; there 's something I need to learn I... Market again and if I found great things, I would say when I saw numbersand... Provenance restrictions stamp and coin clubs, and paintings showed both the was running to money! Schorer ( 1966- ) is an art collector in Boston, Massachusetts and London, England changingone one... The Song period back to the field, right mean, in those days you had and! My grandfather, which was not his son but his son-in-law to deep storage you keep very strict provenance! If anything in my house could be traditional a big issue in the same fudge! Had n't yet sold the Procaccini a dealer was astonishing closed ; we buzz in... Up and talk to him about collecting at all the visual experience is Carlo! Great things, I will learn it, you know, why does this woman look like a?!